How two brothers made it big in pro sports: Colin Faulkner, Chicago Cubs and Chris Faulkner, Denver Broncos

How two brothers made it big in pro sports: Colin Faulkner, Chicago Cubs and Chris Faulkner, Denver Broncos
by Kirk Wakefield – November 2016

Note: In this re-release (first posted April 1, 2013), we congratulate Colin Faulkner, and the 2016 World Champion Chicago Cubs, for catching up to brother Chris Faulkner, whose Denver Broncos won the 2016 Super Bowl.


Colin and Chris Faulkner

S3 Board Member Spotlight

Colin Faulkner
Colin Faulkner
Chris Faulkner
Chris Faulkner

Brothers. Friends. Sports.

These three words bind Chris and Colin Faulkner together as one of the few sets of brothers in the business of sports.

Colin is the Vice President of Sales & Partnerships with the Chicago Cubs. Chris is Manager of Club Seat Sales and Service with the Denver Broncos. Each took different routes getting into their careers.

Overcoming rejection

Colin’s experience with Baylor’s call center and the Waco Wizards (surprise: a defunct hockey team) reinforced his desire to enter sports after graduating from Baylor (1998).

Part of Colin’s motivation today stems from his early days searching for an entry level position. The S3 program’s own, Dr. Darryl Lehnus, then Associate Athletic Director over sales & marketing, spurned Colin for an internship while Colin was working towards his undergraduate degree. Then following scores of applications, Colin’s resume eventually landed in the hands of Shawn McGee of the old Dallas Burn where Colin received his only offer. What happened to all those rejection letters? Fifteen years later they still have their own special place in Colin’s desk. 

Colin went on to prove himself as an account executive with the then combined Texas Rangers/Dallas Stars group before moving to roles with the Stars as the Director of Ticket Sales (2002),Vice President of Ticket Sales (2004), Sr. Vice President of Ticket Sales & Service (2007), and Sr. VP of Marketing (2009). Fulfilling a lifelong dream, Colin was selected as the Vice President of Ticket Sales & Service with the Chicago Cubs (2010) before his recent promotion this spring to include corporate partnerships.

Operations, IT or Sales?

Chris started out with idea of working in operations or IT for a professional team after graduating from Baylor (2001). In his search, Chris quickly learned the lifeblood of an organization was in sales – and the best entry point.  After beginning with the Colorado Rockies, Chris moved into a senior account executive position with the Texas Rangers (2003) before promotions to Group Sales manager (2005) and then Director of Ticket Sales (2007). Following, Chris moved west as the Director of Ticket Sales for the Colorado Crush (2008) before moving across town to sell premium seats for the Broncos (2009) to ultimately assume his current position as Manager of the department (2010).

Work ethic = Success

The brothers share beliefs about what leads to success. Working for good managers helps paves the way. They believe in working hard, having a good attitude and working smart. As Chris points out, sales is purely an effort-based position, “Put in the work and put in the hours.”

Mentors play a role in the success of anyone who moves up the ranks. Geoff Moore, Colin’s mentor, is quick to share his thoughts on Colin’s work ethic and attitude:

“Colin has true character. He is competitive, intelligent and curious. But, his most important quality is his optimism. He believes his hard work will make a difference. This combination of talent and work effort make him a great employee and leader.

Similarly, Andy Silverman, shared from his experiences with Chris:

Chris is a true professional at every level.  From my many years working alongside Chris at the Texas Rangers, to his current role running Premium Sales at the Denver Broncos, Chris not only has my utmost respect but admiration as a true sales professional.   I consider Chris a master of his craft and even more importantly a trusted friend and confidant.

Having a Brother in Sports

Chris and Colin get along, well, just like brothers. They benefit from each other’s experiences, frequently texting each other to share updates, bounce ideas off the other, and share in each other’s successes. Although Chris feels some pressure to keep up with his older brother, they don’t feel like they compete with each other since both have done well in their careers.  Colin said that if he had the option to hire Chris to work for him, he probably wouldn’t because Chris is in such a good situation right now.

Two well-known brothers in sports are the Leiweke brothers, Tim and Tod, and the Yormark brothers, Brett and Michael. Give the Faulkner brothers a few years. When you see them on the front of Forbes magazine, remember you saw them featured first on the S3 Report!

Faulkner Brothers
Mark McCartney, CT Steckel, Chris Faulkner, Colin Faulkner, Brad Oswalt, and John Alexander at  Reliant Stadium for Baylor’s run to the Elite 8 (2010)

5 Characteristics of the Best Salespeople in Sports

5 Characteristics of the Best Salespeople in Sports
by Andre Luck – September 2015

As an Inside Sales Manager I am often asked what the best salespeople do to be the best.  Fortunately, I’ve had the opportunity to manage or mentor over 100 salespeople so far in my career. I have seen many times what the top performing salespeople have done to separate themselves from their peers.  What makes these salespeople great?

Attitude

One of the most important characteristics of a successful salesperson is the attitude you bring to the office every single day.  Although, being positive and having a smile on your face is important, bringing the right attitude to the office is more than just that.  As a salesperson it means fully embracing your role as a salesperson that is tasked with generating revenue for your organization.  It means having a confidence and assertiveness that will help you close sales and overcome tough objections from customers.  And most importantly it means being in total control of how you react to all situations. One of my favorite quotes that I share with every one of my new hires is from Charles Swindoll that says “Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it.” I tell my salespeople that no one else is in control of your attitude but you.

Work Ethic

When I was a sales rep I took great pride in my work ethic. I look to hire salespeople with a strong work ethic as well.  Sales is a numbers game. More times than not, the people who put in the most work are at or near the top of the sales board.  Come early, stay late, make five more phone calls, set one more face to face appointment, do whatever is needed to put yourself in the best situation to succeed. Hard work is not the only recipe to success, but long term success is impossible without it.

Consistency

It seems simple: Be consistent. Do the little things right every single day.  But, it’s tough to do. Consistency requires great discipline. It’s easy to fall into bad habits.

Travis Baker
Travis Baker

Travis Baker, Inside Sales Manager for the Arizona Diamondbacks says, “There isn’t much that separates the good reps from the great reps on our staff.  Because of our hiring process everyone is talented and everyone works hard.  So it comes down to day in and day out consistency, as well as a refusal to lose.”

Make a conscious effort to stick to the fundamentals. Do the little things right every day that others do not have the discipline to do. It adds up after a full sales campaign.  I always feel more confident in a salesperson’s long term success if s/he produces revenue consistently instead of making a big sale every now and again.

Discomfort

Some of the best advice I ever received: If you are not stepping out of your comfort zone, then you are not challenging yourself to grow.

For most new salespeople, it’s uncomfortable to strike up a conversation with a random stranger. It’s uncomfortable to ask someone you just met (and then tells you no multiple times) to spend thousands of dollars.  But, you are tasked with doing this as a salesperson.  The fear of the unknown is too much of a risk for some. They play it safe. They stick with comfortable.  The best salespeople understand that if they do not take risks–do not get out of their comfort zones–then they will not reach their full potential.

Initiative

All sales reps typically have the same resources at their disposal.  They receive the same training, same types of leads to call, and the same products to sell.

Success comes down to what you do with the opportunity.  Look at inside sales as more than just another job. The best reps see it as the start to their careers.  They are all-in. They give 100% commitment to whatever it takes to be the best.  Losing is never an option.  When things don’t go their way they don’t make excuses. The best reps proactively seek help from a boss, a mentor, or peers. Even when there’s little overall sales momentum, they find ways to create momentum for themselves and their sales team.  During training with new hires I always share a quote from Will Rogers, “Even if you’re on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.”

What Do You Want To Be Known For?

What Do You Want To Be Known For?
by Dawn Turner – May 2015

Is there a difference in work ethic across generations?

Some say that work ethic has decreased from Gen X to Gen Y. Others say that it varies by individual and their upbringing. Millennials need to be aware of potential generational biases and even seek to overcompensate in order to prove such theories do not apply to them.

To combat this type of thinking–whether you are a Baby Boomer, Gen X, Y or Z–ask yourself: What do I want to be known for?  A hard worker? A leader? Someone loyal and willing to do whatever the job requires? Next, think about what you don’t want to be known for: lazy, not being a team player, dishonest, disloyal, or a bridge burner.

Burning bridges

burning-bridgeAt a recent sports industry meeting, two people on the same day separately voiced similar complaints about the need to teach today’s young adults about how burning bridges early in their careers can come back to bite them. This got me to thinking about the generational attributes I have been reading about and what we can do to help educate future generations.

The first story I heard was about a young worker who moved from organization A to organization B. After being in the new position for six weeks, the worker received a call from organization A and decided to move back. This turned out to be a rather abrupt move that left organization B in a lurch. The second story I heard was about a recent graduate hired by an organization that they really wanted to work for. This person did a great job and was promoted after just a few weeks, only to decide to depart for a job with an external client.

In both situations the organizations put their faith and resources in these young workers, but were left in the lurch. Even though organizations move on, they will never forget how these two young workers handled these situations. The industry is so small, it is virtually certain word travels around to others. In any case, future interviews will be difficult because hiring managers routinely contact previous employers.

Short term vs. Long term

In the short-term these situations may not seem that crucial. But, it could come back to haunt them in the long-term. Let’s play this out hypothetically using the first example. Once the worker went back to organization A, they stayed there for five years until they got tired of the winter weather.  During that time the president of organization B decided to move to California and run organization C. Since the worker was seeking employment in a warmer climate they applied for a job with organization C. The new president of organization C saw their name come through and remembered how they handled things five years prior. They told their hiring managers not to bother interviewing this candidate and also told their friends at organizations D, E and F (also in California) that they would not recommend this worker. Organizations D, E and F shared this information with their friends at organizations G, H and I who then pass the information to organizations J, K and L. At this point it is very difficult for the worker to get an interview in the industry, let alone in their preferred state of California.

Here’s another real life example. A professional sports organization hired a college student for an internship. The intern turned out not to be very reliable and folks in the organization decided this person was not cut out for full-time employment. A few years later the former intern realized they were not mature enough to handle the work while they were an intern and called to apologize. When they called they explained how they have matured and are ready to take things seriously. Do you think the organization hired them for a full-time opening? No way! This is very unfortunate, because even though people may change, they already made negative impressions.

Who are you?

In my nearly 20-year career I have seen a variety of scenarios similar to these play out, not many of which are positive. The time to take personal responsibility for who we are and what we want to be know for starts now.  Am I a team player? Am I clear about my goals and aspirations? Am I easy to work with? Will my coworkers and managers give me a good review and 100% recommendation?

We should all ask ourselves these questions. If we present ourselves in the best way possible, it really doesn’t matter what the studies say about generations. What matters is who I am and how others see me.

Treating others how we expect to be treated should be toward the top of everyone’s list. As long as we always remember this, we won’t need to worry about making poor decisions that have negative repercussions down the line.


Cover table source: http://www.fdu.edu/newspubs/magazine/05ws/generations.htm

 

 

The surprisingly simple little secret to landing a leadership position

The surprisingly simple little secret to landing a leadership position
by Kirk Madsen – October 2014

What is leadership?

For everything written about leadership and management (an Amazon.com search yields over 1 million books on the topic!), we sure seem to have a lot of questions about what it is and how to do it. One of the questions people in leadership positions get asked all the time is, “How did you get to where you are now?”

Whatever their answer is, it will probably include a surprisingly simple little secret.

Ready? There is no secret.

There really isn’t much of a mystery. Leaders follow simple, repeatable processes anyone can start immediately!

But, before we talk about these processes, let’s first establish two key ground rules:

[dropshadowbox align=”center” effect=”lifted-both” width=”400px” height=”” background_color=”#ffffff” border_width=”1″ border_color=”#dddddd” ]

Ground rule #1: Consistency is king.

Ground rule #2: A positive attitude is non-negotiable.[/dropshadowbox]

These two ground rules are the cornerstones or the foundation for all you do. Over the long haul, building success without these cornerstones is impossible. From there, focus on a few key concepts:

Concept #1: Do more, now.

Leaders work harder and generate results more consistently than their peers.

Dionna Widder
Dionna Widder

Dionna Widder, the Vice President of Ticket Sales & Service with the Cleveland Cavaliers, sums this point up perfectly: “You do not need a title to be a leader. Set yourself apart with your work ethic and results.” Everyone is capable of having a great week, or even a great month. Leaders have great quarters and great years. Sure, they have their off-days. So did Michael Jordan; his were just better than everyone else’s.

Concept #2: Lead, now.

Take on a leadership role with your current team.

Joe Schiavi
Joe Schiavi

Joe Schiavi, the Director of Inside Sales with the Detroit Pistons, offers some practical advice to practice leadership now: “Teach less experienced reps and give time out of your day to make sure that your teammates have the best possible opportunity for success.  Your manager will notice your extra efforts. Your teammates will respect you because you took the time out of your day to help them when they needed assistance.”

Concept #3: Be a student.

Every day.

Consider how much more capable you are of passing a test when you’ve taken the time to study. Widder recommends, “Schedule a meeting with your manager or other leaders in the industry to learn.  Seek out resources and dedicate time to be a student.” Books, articles, TED talks, conversations with others – there are countless resources available. Use one of them every day!

Concept #4: Pick your peers.

Immediately find mentors and surround yourself with successful people.

Do you know what I love most about being a leader? Finding others who want to succeed, and empowering them to do it. On a peer-to-peer level, spend your time and energy with people who exhibit the positive personal and professional traits you see (or want to see) in yourself. On an executive level, ask the people you admire to mentor you. The benefits of surrounding yourself with successful people will be real and immediate. “Ask and welcome feedback from your leaders, peers, and friends and develop plans to improve areas that need improving,” Widder says. “Feedback can be both positive and constructive; both are valuable to your growth.”

By applying these concepts, you’ll have a greater impact on your organization. The greater the impact, the greater your chances of breaking into leadership positions.


Cover photo courtesy of MarcMo.

 

S3 Board Member Spotlight: Kelly Cheeseman, AEG Worldwide

S3 Board Member Spotlight: Kelly Cheeseman, AEG Worldwide
by Jerry Ruiz – February 2013

Congratulations to S3 Board Members in their new positions:  Kelly Cheeseman, Chief Operating Officer of AEG Worldwide, and Chris McGowan, President of the Portland Trailblazers.

Chris McGowan
Chris McGowan
Kelly Cheeseman
Kelly Cheeseman

This is a story about the value of good mentors.

Kelly Cheeseman started his career as the Manager of Marketing at Rancho Cucamonga Quakes before coming to the LA Kings/AEG in 2001 as an Account Executive in ticket sales. In short order, Kelly advanced to Senior Sales Executive and then to the Manager of Ticket Sales. By 2005, Kelly was the Director of Sales & Service. Three years later, he was promoted to Vice President, Sales & Service, followed by a move up to Senior Vice President in 2012. When Chris McGowan left the COO position at AEG Worldwide to become the President & CEO of the Portland Trailblazers, Kelly was, as always, prepared to step in.

“Kelly has the best work ethic of any sports executive I have ever seen,” said Chris McGowan. From his experience, beginning in 1996 at AEG, McGowan sees the COO position at AEG as a true privilege. Having worked alongside Cheeseman for over a decade, Chris said what’s obvious to everyone is that, “Kelly is extremely passionate about the sports industry and dedicates a lot of time and energy into learning every aspect of the business.” Kelly would say he’s been helped by seeing it modeled by his mentor, Chris McGowan.

Giving back

In turn, Kelly has always taken the time to mentor others. Two graduates of  the inaugural Baylor S3 class in 2006, Todd Pollock and Brett Christenson, began in ticket sales at the LA Kings/AEG. Cheeseman took the two under his wings and helped them get off to a good start within the industry.

Todd Pollock in London
Todd Pollock

“Kelly has been a great mentor. Aside from his knowledge and business-savvy mentality, he has always been a great leader with his staff, whom he cares about greatly. His willingness to develop skill sets and train his staff makes him one of the best executives in the sports world today,” said Pollock, currently General Manager of Sales & Service at Temple University.

Under Cheeseman’s mentorship, Pollock moved from inside sales to account executive to Manager of Sales & Service for the LA Kings in less than two years, before becoming Manager, Ticketing & Suites, at the San Francisco 49ers. Cheeseman, like his mentor McGowan, share the qualities of all good mentors.

Christenson landed at FC Dallas in corporate sales, before completing his MBA and moving into corporate business intelligence and database analytics.

[dropshadowbox align=”right” effect=”lifted-bottom-right” width=”250px” height=”” background_color=”#ffffff” border_width=”1″ border_color=”#dddddd” ]Qualities of Good Mentors:

  • genuine concern for your best interest
  • willingness to share what they know to help you get ahead
  • willingness to be available to you when you need help—not just at their convenience
  • ability to identify your needs or deficiencies and to develop strategies for overcoming such obstacles to your success
  • respectfulness, trustworthiness, honesty and supportiveness

Source: Achieve Solutions [/dropshadowbox]

Learned along the way

Looking back at his career, the biggest challenges came during the two NHL work stoppage. Facing such obstacles out of your control, Cheeseman says, “will truly test your ability to maintain good relationships with customers and challenge your mental strength.”

When asked about some of the best career tips he’s ever received, Cheeseman recalled words shared by McGowan that stuck with him:

  • Hard work can never be beat.
  • There are no shortcuts.
  • Always look for ways to be innovative.
  • Don’t get stuck in a rut.

What is Cheeseman’s advice to others wanting to succeed in sales management in this business?

  • Hire a great team properly organized to work together. Focus on the structure.
  • Develop a measurable business plan you can review against key performance indicators.
  • Hire an analytics team to support your staff.

Of course, it always helps to have a positive mindset. “Clients and co-workers really enjoy working with Kelly because he has a great personality,” McGowan added.

Thanks

The students in the Baylor S3 program look forward to continued success stories from those fortunate enough to work with Mr. Cheeseman and Mr. McGowan. Thanks for giving back!

Is integrity in sports sales a problem?

Is integrity in sports sales a problem?
by Wade Graf – February 2013

Hundreds, even thousands, apply for any ticket sales position opening, flooding LinkedIn, PBEO and Teamwork Online  with resumes and contacts trying anything to break in.

Some fly to the Baseball Winter Meetings or various sports sales combines in hopes of speaking to any hiring manager willing to listen. If fortunate enough to grab entry-level positions in inside sales, they soon realize they have a very short time period to prove worthy ticket sellers.

[dropshadowbox align=”right” effect=”lifted-both” width=”350px” height=”” background_color=”#ffffff” border_width=”.5″ border_color=”#dddddd” ]

Three Takeaways:
• Form good habits and practices early in your career.
• Never compromise morals or integrity in order to get ahead.
• Promotions aren’t always awarded to the top revenue generator. Integrity, teamwork and work ethic are other key components in taking the next step in your career.[/dropshadowbox]

Entry level sales positions are often part-time or limited periods (6-12 months) before the next batch of recruits invade the cubicles. Reps compete in revenue generation to earn a full time position with the team. In this pressurized competitive situation, inexperienced reps may look for any way possible to succeed.

Habits learned early in your career not only stay with you; they grow and intensify on a daily basis. It is incredibly important new ticket salespeople understand there is more to their jobs than just generating the most revenue possible. Sure, managers want and need to fill the seats through season tickets and nightly suites, but that’s not all that matters.

Does integrity count?

Outstanding sales reps don’t compromise integrity trying to make sales or earn promotions. Being a standout sales representative is not:

  • taking a 16-digit credit card number or check, then ignoring the client over the entire course of the season.
  • achieved by holding a great seat location from your co-workers until you find just the right individual or company who will buy them from you.
  • earned by trying to sell to a company your teammate has been talking to for months or by hiding a sale in the client’s brother’s ticket account.

Just one episode of taking another representative’s sale can tarnish that representative’s image. Months or even years of great work can come crashing down over one moral compromise.

Jason Fortune, Season Ticket Manager with the Texas Rangers, explains,

Jason Fortune

“As long as you  maintain your integrity and make the right decisions, you will always have a chance to earn a promotion. Always remember that sales reps who cut corners and ‘cheat’ the system will not last long with any organization. The recipe for success is simple: Come in, work hard every day surpassing expectations, never compromise your integrity, and eventually your hard work will pay off.”

Katie Morgan, CRM and Database Manager with the Texas Rangers, notes the effects acting with integrity has on potential promotions:

Katie Morgan
Katie Morgan

“Gaining the respect of your peers is one of the most beneficial things within the sports industry and also one of the most critical. Maintaining working relationships with those around you will help with day to day tasks. But, more importantly, those who earn respect and work well with others catch a manager’s eye when looking to potentially promote.”

Are you a great teammate?

Being a great teammate and helping the person you are competing with to earn the promotion is just as important as being on top of the sales board. Giving great customer service and showing customers around for an hour in the stadium means just as much to the organization as making ten more calls in order to earn the next sale.

When looking to promote from within the organization, season ticket or suite managers don’t always pick the leader on the sales board. They want those who can sell, but also those who provide superior customer service, have great moral standards, and represent the organization well each and every day. Remember it’s a team sport, both on the field and in the office.

 

S3 Board Member Spotlight: Kris Katseanes, FC Dallas

S3 Board Member Spotlight: Kris Katseanes, FC Dallas
by Travis Martin – January 2013

Kris Katseanes, Vice President of Ticket Sales and Service for FC Dallas, has been an invaluable member of the S3 Advisory Board. Because of Kris’ leadership and willingness to mentor the careers of young people entering the profession, Baylor’s S3 program annually places interns and new employees with FC Dallas.

Kris Katseanes
Kris Katseanes

Each fall semester Katseanes visits the Baylor campus to interview S3 students for internships the following summer. For most juniors this is the first real interview with a team. Katseanes helps calm the tension as students walk into the one-on-one interviews. As with other on-campus interviews with board members, students meet with the S3 Program Director, Dr. Darryl Lehnus, to help learn for the next interview.

All the students who meet with Mr. Katseanes quickly learn about his opinion of the value of hard work. His strong work ethic was instilled in him since he was a boy. Growing up on a potato farm, hard work was the only way to go when your day starts at 4:00 am.

One demonstration of this kind of dedication came one afternoon when Katseanes found inefficiencies in the team’s database. Salespeople were wasting time and it was clear the system needed organizing. Since the team did not have a specific person assigned to the database, Katseanes took it upon himself to work from 7:00 pm that night to 7:00 am to clean up the leads in the system. This not only helped them gain more sales, but gained admiration around the office for making everyone’s life easier.

Along with integrity and networking, work ethic represents part of the Baylor S3 W-I-N acronym instilled in students. Katseanes believes we reap what we sow and luck finds people who work hard. For young professionals, the best way to improve your career is to volunteer for anything and everything. This puts you ahead of the person next to you and gets you noticed by the right people.

“But, you have to be careful,” Katseanes says. “I see young professionals always looking to the next step so much that they can’t be content with the current. The grass isn’t always greener on the other side, so find a place where you can be happy.”

Vice President of Marketing, Communications & Strategic Planning FC Dallas
Kelly Weller

“He’s fair, creative, solution and result oriented,” said Kelly Weller, Vice President of Marketing, Communications & Strategic Planning with FC Dallas. “Everyone has a chance to succeed with him.  They are given all the tools, resources and time to perform their best to not only hit their individual goals, but to help achieve the overall objectives of the company.  He’s one of a kind in my book!”

Katseanes loves working with the S3 program because of the leadership the program offers to its students. At FC Dallas, Katseanes has developed a leadership development program that helps employees set written goals with measurable results and deadlines. Katseanes enjoys working with the the S3 professors and S3 graduates, because the emphasis is on preparing to enter a career and not just get a job.

The Chevrolet S3 2012 Awards

The Chevrolet S3 2012 Awards
by Kirk Wakefield – October 2012

Thanks to Chevrolet and S3 Board Members Dave Nottoli, Steve Flynn, and Jeff Busch, the 2012 S3 Board Meeting marked the first year of the S3 Awards for Outstanding Board Members (Corporate & Team), Outstanding S3 Alum, and Outstanding S3 Writer. Selections were based on those who exemplify the S3 motto of WIN (work ethic, integrity, and networking) and their contribution to the program.

Steve Flynn presented the awards, a bronze Baylor Bear, along with S3 faculty Dr. Darryl Lehnus and Dr. Kirk Wakefield. The names of each winner will be placed on a perpetual award plaque located in the S3 classroom.

This year’s winners:

Outstanding 2012 S3 Corporate Board Member: Eric Fernandez, with Darryl Lehnus, Steve Flynn, and Kirk Wakefield

 

 

Outstanding 2012 Team Board Member: Joe Clark, with Kirk Wakefield, Steve Flynn, and Darryl Lehnus
Outstanding 2012 S3 Alum: Todd Pollock (S3 ’06), with Darryl Lehnus, Kirk Wakefield and Steve Flynn
Outstanding 2012 S3 Writer: Bill Boyce, with Darryl Lehnus, Steve Flynn, and Kirk Wakefield